In this episode of The Thermo Diet Podcast Christopher Walker and Jayton Miller sit down and talk about some of the history of psychedelics, what they are, and some of their own experiences with them.
Check it out and let us know what you think in the comments below!
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Full Transcript
Chris Walker:
The content in this episode is meant for educational purposes only, and is not meant to serve as a recommendation for, prescription for, or doing anything with the compounds that we talk about today.
Jayton Miller:
Welcome back to the Thermo Diet Podcast. I'm your co-host, Jayton Miller and I'm here with the boss man himself. How are you doing today, Chris?
Chris Walker:
Well, glad to be back.
Jayton Miller:
So, today we're talking about a very fun topic, the topic of psychedelics.
Chris Walker:
Yeah. So Jayton mentioned that a lot of people have been asking about psychedelics. Is that since the last Think Again episode?
Jayton Miller:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). I noticed that it has gone up in the group since then, yeah.
Chris Walker:
Yeah, yeah. For those of you who are listening, I haven't watched that Think Again episode. So just search for "Think Again, serotonin" on YouTube and watch it. Talk about the interplay between the history of serotonin and the health issues associated with excess serotonin and then how it's strangely very interlaced with the rise of the psychedelics in modern times. So I thought it was interesting. I thought it was pretty awesome. Pretty well-written.
Jayton Miller:
Yeah. So, whenever you talk about psychedelics, what comes to mind? What's your definition of psychedelics?
Chris Walker:
I guess a couple of things. Obviously the mind altering effect of it, but that doesn't really cover everything. Right? Because you can use a lot of things for mind-altering effects, like caffeine even. But psychedelics for whatever reason tend to have just this universally similar aspect to them of opening up somebody's mind, for lack of a better term, and increase in awareness, increasing like a euphoria sense, but it's not necessarily even a positive euphoria all the time. It could be both negative and positive in some ways. Whereas other drugs you could say like Molly, would increase euphoria or ecstasy or that sort of thing, but it's not considered a psychedelic drug. I would personally, I think they're all in the... I'm not in the drug classification world of all the different stuff that people do.
Chris Walker:
But I think those sorts of things like ecstasy, would be of on the edge of a classification of psychedelic, but I tend to reserve those, like that classification, typically for stuff that is like psilocybin, LSD, iowaska, which is basic DMT, and even psilocybin, the active ingredient psilocybin is psilocin and it's a form of DMT. So it's almost like DMT is the root of a lot of that class of psychedelic drugs and like peyote and that sort of stuff. So, that's what I think of where it's this way more powerful and positive experience that's used by, the people that use it, aren't using it for party drugs. They're using it more for a mind opening effect, a positive effect long-term.
Jayton Miller:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). And they work as serotonin antagonist? Correct?
Chris Walker:
Yeah. The biochemistry is pretty complicated, especially due to the fact that researchers don't know exactly why yet, about how a lot of this stuff works. They do know that psilocybin, for example, the psilocin binds to the 5-HT2a receptors. But I've also read studies on, and I took a lot of neuroscience coursework in addiction modeling and addiction studying in college. And that it was heavily focused on moral illicit drugs like cocaine and a lot of what they know about that, cocaine also binds to the same receptors. Amphetamines also bind to the same 5-HT2a receptor, but they have a very different downstream effect and very different addiction tendencies. Whereas something like psilocybin is almost impossible to get addicted to, probably is impossible. I've never seen somebody actually get addicted to it, but it's the psilocin itself is binding to the same receptor that cocaine or the compounds and amphetamines and the [contioners 00:04:43] that they use for binding those and that sort of stuff.
Chris Walker:
That's all binding to those similar receptor sites and the 5-HT2c. What they've come down to, as far as I know, is that it's not just the simple, it's very convenient. A lot of the whole receptor bind model thing, it's so simplified, be like, "This binds to that receptor, so it must do this." It's not true. There's a lot more going on because what happens is, whatever the compound is itself, that's binding, even though it can fit in that receptor site and it has an affinity for it, it triggers different effects downstream. So those cascades are extremely complicated and as far as I know, that's what people are still trying to figure out. And they, like the 5-HT2a theory was just a theory really until last year and there was a more definitive study that looked at it.
Chris Walker:
I pulled that up here but they don't even say much in this study other than like, "We have a lot of evidence that with psilocybin, it is binding to that receptor site." But they're not really elaborating on, "Now what?" "Why is different than cocaine hitting the same receptor site?" So what they say and they had three findings that they came out with, out of that study was, the higher the psilocybin dose, the more 5-HT2a receptors were occupied in the brain. So it's makes sense if it's binding to those receptors. "Receptor occupancy hit 72% at the highest dose." Which they were only using 30 milligrams, which is a very, very low dose. When people talk about heroic dose mushroom trips, they're using five grams plus, right? And I personally don't even trip unless it's about one to one and a half grams. It depends on if I have anything in my stomach or not really.
Chris Walker:
So, and even those, that's more of a light thing. So I'm not sure why they were only measuring that small of an amount, but they measured between three and 30 milligrams. And they did note that, I mean, 72% occupancy at 30 milligrams is quite a lot. So you'd imagine that the... It seems correlative of the higher the dose, the more of these receptor sites are being bound. The next thing they saw was the amount of psilocin in the blood plasma and the calculator receptor occupancy and the brain were strongly related. The author stated that they conform to a single site binding model. So, they're thinking that it is, that this is really the receptor site that it's going after. And then the third thing was, "The intensity of the subjective effects had strong correlations to receptor occupancy in the brain."
Chris Walker:
So that's basically determined through surveys and questionnaires from the subjects. But, yeah, I'm not deep into pharmacology of psychedelics and I've read a fair amount about it, but I'm not super obsessed with it. So I'm potentially missing something here. But as far as I understand, even with the relation of the cocaine, amphetamines and that sort of thing, and what we would consider a psychedelic drug, what it really comes down to is the compounds' effect on that receptor site, the binding really triggering a very, very different cascade of effects throughout the brain. And so, psilocybin, LSD, is explaining the serotonin episode, are serotonin antagonists. So they tend to be basically dopaminergic in the same way that something like cocaine is dopaminergic.
Chris Walker:
However, then you also have feedback loops, which people never take into account. So you could be a chronic cocaine addict and end up having very different long-term effects from it, in terms of your physical health and the rest of your body. So it's not a very simple subject and there's a lot of emerging science around it now, finally, which also, if you watch the episode, you'll know why. But obviously all research into LSD and psilocybin was really just cut off in the seventies. And it was completely outlawed really across the world due to governing bodies claiming it as illicit of a drug, as something like heroin. But now we're seeing a resurgence in it, mostly due to MAPS. As far as I understand MAPS, the organization that's leading the research aspect of using psychedelics in therapeutic settings, but they are using stuff like MDMA as well.
Chris Walker:
So it's with good results. So maybe MDMA would be considered a psychedelic in that sense. It's just not the first thing I think of, but I did watch that business of drugs on psychedelics. Was it on psychedelic or just MDMA? I don't know. Did you watch that?
Jayton Miller:
I haven't watched it yet.
Chris Walker:
It was MDMA, yeah. It was interesting because I think they got it out of... The first guy that distilled MDMA was just out of the sas... It was out of sassafras, the plant. And then they tell the whole story about how... This was just a husband and wife, chemists, good chemists, they're renowned chemists, but they were experimenting with all these things and they found that, and then they had this whole legal battle because they got raided by the DEA or something.
Chris Walker:
And, even though it wasn't illegal technically, they just had this like sassafras concoction. But yeah, I mean, that's the story of anybody that invents one of these things. Like the LSD thing, I think it was within two years of it being discovered, it was fully controlled by the CIA, the entire world's population of it. And Sandoz laboratories eventually, obviously they couldn't use it, their patent expired and they ended up having to sell. They were selling all of it to the CIA before their patent expired and then they couldn't use it out in the applications that they were actually trying to use it for initially, which was psychotherapy and schizophrenia treatments. So there's, I mean, it's an interesting world, the world of controlling drugs. Yeah. I don't know. How do you feel about psychedelics? Where's some of the questions also, that people ask?
Jayton Miller:
So most of them are just curious as to the health effects of them, short-term and long-term. So, whenever you're actually having an experience under the influence of one of these substances, "What's going on?" And then, "What are the long-term repercussions of what's going on?" So that's what I commonly see inside of the group specifically. Yeah. But as far as my perception of them, I enjoy them. I think they're good. I don't think that they're necessarily bad. I think there's a lot of misconceptions whenever it comes to psychedelics specifically, also think that people aren't responsible with the use of substances such as that.
Chris Walker:
Yeah. How so? How would someone not be responsible?
Jayton Miller:
Hmm. Well, let's see...
Chris Walker:
Like, I know with MDMA. Yeah, that's been obvious.
Jayton Miller:
Well, obtaining it for one, is difficult. Environment is number two, because you can either have a perfect environment or an absolutely terrible environment that you can have two very different outcomes from just the environment itself, that you're in.
Chris Walker:
Yeah, absolutely.
Jayton Miller:
And I think that comes with the internal environment as well. So, what head space are you in and are you actually examining the internal state that you currently are in before you're going into that experience?
Chris Walker:
Yeah. I've found that that's probably the most important thing and it's very general and it seems obvious, but most people don't realize it until after the first time they don't do it right. But with those compounds, from what I've observed, pattern wise, it seems to just be a reflection of your internal state in general and it amplifies it. So, I've known people that have had really, really bad trips while other people at the same time, the friends of theirs, they're sitting on the same beach, are having an amazing time and they use the same exact batch of it. That's really important. And also dosing, dose makes the poison like anything. People need to really pay attention to dosing. You don't want to just go into a heroic dose and you don't even know what you're looking at, because especially if you're not in the right environment and I've personally, it's like, I think something like psilocybin is a very great, it's a good compound for exploring and appreciating nature more.
Chris Walker:
I don't think it's even possible to not notice nature under those circumstances. And it's more than noticing. You end up just deeply appreciating it and you're like, "Wow, this is incredible." I've read stuff on the mythology aspect of it and the history of mushrooms, in terms of co-evolution with humans. And there's a lot of theories about it. Obviously the Stoned Ape Theory, I think is the biggest one, but there's a lot of interesting stuff in mythology that gets tied in with all of it and there's a lot of interpretations of it too. It doesn't mean every single one of them is right. I've read a lot of different, more mythological stuff. Even the Carl Jung and Erich Neumann stuff, that's directly tied in, you see a pattern between that and some psychedelic researcher.
Chris Walker:
I have this book, can't remember what it's called because it's got the shittiest branding I've ever seen, but it's an all white book but it's the titles imprinted in it, but it's pretty good, but really what it is, is a collection of essays from researchers. And some of them look at the mythology aspect of it and the symbolism that's involved and they can translate it. I've noticed patterns between their history, arguments, and stuff that you would read in Carl Jung's writings, that are interesting. But it doesn't mean you need to just buy into it. But it's really interesting, in terms of history.
Jayton Miller:
Yeah. That is fascinating because Jordan Peterson talks a little bit about that in his series over the psychological significance of the biblical stories. He talks about the shamanic experience whenever he's talking about Jacob's ladder and how the entire experience itself, whenever he visualizes a ladder to heaven, could have actually been a psilocybin trip because they were known during that time to have frequent psilocybin trips, in that area specifically.
Chris Walker:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). You mean the prevalence of visions and that sort of thing?
Jayton Miller:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). And that's a common replicable vision that's been seen among many different people, is some kind of stairway or ladder to the sky or some greater unknown.
Chris Walker:
Like another common one with DMT especially, is people just blasting out of their body and going flying through the air but then going into space and going through a door of some kind, up in the clouds or something. That's an interesting aspect of these things that I don't have an answer for and I haven't seen anybody that has. But the archetypes that are involved with it, because if you can draw it back to someone Jung, who was known to use these compounds and his analysis of the collective unconscious concepts on the archetypes involved and the idea that everything really falls into some archetypical structure. That's, I think, fascinating, but it's definitely one of those things that, the more you read about it, it could be this never-ending road, which you're like, "Oh God, I just learned something else. I got to go and look into that too."
Chris Walker:
But if you're like learning and the never ending road is just part of the part of the process, but that's something biologically I'd be really interested in, people studying now that research is opening up for this stuff. Is there any way to predict in our typical experience, based on the biological events? And I think the answer is completely "yes" but then can they determine what those events are? Which is a little bit more difficult of the thing. Requires a lot of time and a lot of money in the research because most researchers only super... And especially even lab setups, they're set up to study one thing, or one set of things, over and over and over. So you'd have to take... And it's unfortunate. I wish there was some super labs that could just add an ability to launch a study like this, but they had a hundred researchers looking at all different aspects of it, that they really specialized in and then piece it all together and do it over and over and over and figure out what are the patterns that elicit certain things.
Chris Walker:
But then the subjective nature of that, is that you might end up at the end of the study with people, just because of biochemistry at the moment in that person's body and everyone is completely different in the way, structurally you're not, but when they show up to a study, their biochemistry is going to vary greatly in terms of deficiency levels, bacteria influences and even just degeneration over time and different ages and that sort of thing. So, it'd be pretty hard to nail that, I think. But it'd be interesting if people are studying it, to read it.
Jayton Miller:
In the experience itself, what is your perception of that enhanced stimulus that's coming in?
Chris Walker:
When it starts?
Jayton Miller:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). And then like-
Chris Walker:
Hmm, vision.
Jayton Miller:
Okay.
Chris Walker:
Yeah. Color vision. My vision gets real sharp. Yeah. Which is that awareness thing, you just become aware of other stuff and patterns. Even if it's not full on, all the light is breaking into color, you notice patterns in everything really, you can even see extreme detail in a dry wall or something like... It's crazy, the level of awareness that hits at that point.
Jayton Miller:
So, do you think that that reality isn't perceived by the basic biological organism because we don't have the ability to compensate with that amount of stimulus?
Chris Walker:
I think it's a filtering effect. Yeah. I took a semester on perception in college, which was really interesting. Didn't go into any of this, which they should have. That'd been really interesting. But it was based on just perception organs and how they interact with the brain and what we know about it. And really a persistent theme or motif in that whole thing, is just that the brain filters to conserve energy really. So your perception, normally... And there's another cool thing I'll touch on with this too, but your perception in your everyday life is constantly filtering everything in terms of your conscious ability to see it and recall it and smell it and whatever it is, hear it, especially hearing, is a good filter. I think hearing and vision are probably the top filtering senses, but then the cool thing is that, I've also seen a lot of instances where if somebody like... You are constantly, in that theory especially, if you're constantly filtering things, it means that those inputs are actually hitting and then they have to be filtered.
Chris Walker:
So, it doesn't mean that you consciously are like, "That guy's shirt is green." But if you just walked by some random person on the street, you're not like, "Oh, green shirt, squirrel, blue shoelace." Because you'd go nuts. So you'd go fucking crazy. But the thing that's cool, is that people can consistently recall those details when in a calm setting especially if you go into a bit of a meditative state and then you can just, and it doesn't even have to be very long, it just be 30 seconds or something, but people can recall extreme detail of what they saw, but filtered. So, that's interesting too.
Chris Walker:
So, there's something to the... With the compounds themselves tend to just make you hyper perceptive and biologically it's a reality, your vision gets way better. Your hearing gets way better. We're at top of the mountain once and I won't say who I was with, but after psilocybin, a pretty healthy amount, just chilling, but those bunch of other people there and it was noisy. It was just kind of event scenario. And I noticed that I could hear everything. I could hear every conversation, even across the room that I normally, absolutely, would not be able to hear. And it was crazy, but it was every single conversation coming in at once but you could perceive it and you could tell who was saying it and, "Blah, blah, blah."
Chris Walker:
So then, it was like trying to direct focus of like, "Why are you saying that about me?" I'm trying to figure out where the noise is coming from, but I thought that was really interesting, because that had never happened to me before, but it was weird. I was like, "Holy crap. How can I hear everything that people are saying?" Even on the other side of the wall kind of thing, you could hear everything. So it's something in the biological effect, definitely has something to do with, you're just blasting open perception, physically and mentally, which is interesting. Because there is definitely a dual effect of that. Your sensory organs are definitely working in overtime. But the mental perception thing, coupled with that same exact time is also, that's something that is a lot harder to measure, way more subjective. But everyone consistently really reports on good experiences of extreme benefits of opening up stuff and-
Jayton Miller:
Empathy. That's a big one. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Walker:
Yeah. Like an understanding at the empathetic level, I guess.
Jayton Miller:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). So along with that from the emotional state, what is your perception of the metaphysical level, that a lot of people tend to associate with these different experiences?
Chris Walker:
Okay. Can you be more specific?
Jayton Miller:
Well, I guess you could say spiritual instead of metaphysical. What is your perception or opinion on the spirituality aspect of a lot of these different experiences?
Chris Walker:
I think everything has a biological basis in a human experience, but then that would go back to the concept of the observer being required for something to happen. So there's definitely some root operating system in our body that allows for that intense spiritual thing. And most of the time, I don't think we're very tapped into it and it might make sense that we're not, because we still have to operate in the physical world. We can't just transcend as holy beings into the realm of our minds. Right? But it's definitely like a two-part thing, it's what it seems like, especially because of just the ubiquity of these compounds, having that effect, that is so archetypical across populations of people and then they've been used for, psilocybin at least, for many thousands of years and you can see evidence of it in every culture.
Chris Walker:
And then, I'm curious about it in the sense that, and it would feed into that as evidence of the idea that mushrooms are this extremely co-evolved plant with humans where all the gods in every civilization throughout recorded history, seem to have very, very similar archetypes, to the point where people are like, "This is that. This Roman god is this Greek god." And it's just a different name. Well, part of that could be just translation of a culture because Rome and Greece were close to each other.
Chris Walker:
The other aspect is that when you look in Mayan civilization or a place in Malaysia, that's thousands of years old, they still find evidence of these similar typical gods or Norse gods. And at times where these mind structures, these beings that people were talking about, were all in completely different parts of the world and are in their cultures. At times specifically when people don't believe we could really travel over those lengths, especially if you looked at across the Atlantic, but that's also being blown wide open in terms of archeology. But I don't know, it's just interesting. It's a pattern there. I don't know the answer to that, but it seems like the mushroom itself seems to have played a part or potentially played a correlation in the development of a lot of these archetypical spiritual entities in cultures.
Chris Walker:
And it makes sense. I mean, because it does tend to be this consistent and that's what I think, Terence McKenna always said that, he was like, "It's just this consistent, same thing every time." I think he compares it to meditation where meditation takes a lot of work to get into a meditative state, takes a lot of discipline, practice, which is not a bad thing at all. But the people report psychedelic experiences in deep, deep meditations and visions and that sort of thing. So, there's something biologically rooted, even independent of psilocybin, for example, or some compound binding to some receptor, that is in our biology to encourage that experience. But meditation would take more work according to Terence McKenna, than taking psilocybin to achieve a similar experience. I don't know if that answered your question, but that's just what I think about it.
Jayton Miller:
Yeah. That's interesting. So, how do you relate something similar along the lines of, that there is an Kybalion and their perception of the all or the mind, how do you relate that back to that experience?
Chris Walker:
I guess for people that don't know, the Kybalion, it's a book on the core tenets of hermetic laws. Hermetic laws are, apparently the story goes, I guess, back to ancient Egyptian times of Hermes, being this overly wise and enlightened god/king type person who had these laws that were taught. Right? But the cool thing about it is the Kybalion is more, I think it was written in early 1900s or late 1800s, as a distillation of all that stuff. It's almost so common sense that you're like, "How did I not know that or realize it?" But then it's one of those things where it's like, "Everything is vibrating, all his mind, it all starts in your head."
Chris Walker:
A lot of this stuff, it should be common sense. But then also the cool thing is that if you read back history of Isaac Newton, for example, he actually based most of his discoveries off of studying hermetic philosophy and being obsessed with it and translating it into the physical world. So, a lot of what you find these ancient philosophers, not ancient, he's not ancient, ancient ones too, like Pythagoras used it a lot. But someone like Isaac Newton or Galileo, we're using these, just core tenets really, to put roots in the physical world of like, "How is the physical world actually the natural world working in..." It's almost like they were testing it to see if it worked in real life, but it led to huge breakthroughs in science, whereas these are thousands of years old, these core ideas.
Chris Walker:
I think it translates because there's some sort of... I'm just convinced there's some sort of pattern mechanism in humans and there's a foundational system that is there that we just don't fully understand yet, in relation to the environment that we're in right now, the reality. So I think it's just all pieces of the puzzle of people trying to learn more. I think that's really what science was originally supposed to be about, just this never-ending movement forward, process oriented into discovering the truth about the physical world, or be at now, it's very different. Some of that exists for sure, but it seems like most of it's turning into it's own religion.
Jayton Miller:
Yeah. It's the basic principle of the ouroboros. They had the consistent pattern throughout all of humanity and existence in itself.
Chris Walker:
Yeah. The rise and rebirth or death, eating yourself thing. Yeah. Yeah. There's patterns everywhere. That's why I'm convinced intuition is just pattern recognition, very advanced pattern recognition.
Jayton Miller:
Interesting. Can you elaborate?
Chris Walker:
Well, intuition is when you just know something, right? Just like, "I know I have to do that. That's the right choice or blah, blah, blah." I think we're so sensory oriented that we read a million things. We listen to a million things. We talk to a million people. You see everything, even though you're filtering things, you hear everything. There's an element and the fact that we exist in the electromagnetic spectrum of perceivable and imperceivable and perceptible wave lengths, that there would be inputs constantly, even if you're not able to perceive them.
Chris Walker:
So, it's the pattern recognition of intuition, in my opinion, would be that it's just a matter of your ability to get in tune with a very advanced pattern set. And some people are just not intuitive at all. And I think it's just because of shut out to it, but then you see it in action too. If you sit down and meditate for 30 minutes every day and just allowing yourself to calm down and receive that sort of information, I guess. And then certain things just pop up and they're like, "Oh yeah, I've got to do that." Even if you're not, you have no intention of that.
Jayton Miller:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's about the extent of the questions that I can think of at the moment.
Chris Walker:
Okay. Well, then we'll put a disclaimer on this. We're not telling you to do drugs. Don't do drugs. Drugs are such an interesting word too. Anything's a drug really, but yeah, we're not telling you to take psilocybin or LSD or MDMA or iowaska or anything. So I'll put that disclaimer in here. Because I ain't trying to in trouble with some lawyers. Enough of them lawyers. But hopefully this just shed some light just on personal opinions about it and knowledge. It's still a very open book because the research on psychedelics is extremely immature, like formal research. But a lot of the interesting stuff you can find about them is in old text, in cultures that used them a lot, like the Nordic cultures, highly, heavy users, the shamanic practices, old mythology translations I guess, of certain things. They're all interesting.
Chris Walker:
I don't know. I don't know what any of the answers are to any of it, but it's interesting to read and there's a lot more of that stuff than there is formal research on this right now. And most of the research is being done in therapeutic settings for PTSD, depression, that sort of stuff. So if you're interested in that, you might want to check out MAPS and read through what they're doing. And Johns Hopkins is doing a lot.
Jayton Miller:
Yeah. Johns Hopkin has a lot of really interesting research that they're doing right now.
Chris Walker:
Hopefully this was helpful. Let us know any questions in the Thermo Group, Thermo Diet Community Group on Facebook that you might have. We're also, pretty soon, if you're listening to this in real time, we're launching a ton of new cool stuff at the UMZU Fit Community coming up soon.
Chris Walker:
So, it's going to be fitness aspect to everything and we'll have other stuff in that community as well, like cooking and other interesting topics. And it's going to be a community though. It'll be a place where you can interact and we want to build a really strong, awesome group there. And it's going to be a mobile app too. So, we've got that. And then a bunch of new cool products like personal care, dog treats for joints and new-
Jayton Miller:
Snack bars.
Chris Walker:
Yeah. The bars.
Jayton Miller:
Oh my gosh, I can't wait for those to be here.
Chris Walker:
Yep. We've got some delicious bars coming out. Brownie batter is definitely the best flavor, but they're all good. Pumpkin spice, really good, blueberry muffin. And if you have any other ideas for flavors that you want, we're going to probably launch one or two new bar flavors on Black Friday this year. So let us know in the group. So that's it for this episode. Thanks for listening and watching. Like and subscribe. If you liked the podcast, leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts, that would be helpful to us and we'd appreciate that a lot. Again, check out the Thermo Diet Group and we will see on the next episode.
