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The Thermo Diet Podcast Episode 8 - How To Increase Your Metabolism

The Thermo Diet Podcast Episode 8 - How To Increase Your Metabolism

In this episode of the Thermo Diet Podcast, Christopher Walker and Jayton sit down and talk about some of the intricacies of the metabolism and the foundational elements you need and can do in order to optimize your metabolism.

Check it out and let us know what you think in the comments below!

 

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Full Transcript:

Chris:
What's up everyone, welcome back to The Thermo Diet Podcast. My name is Christopher Walker, I'm here with Jeremiah Mailer.

Jeremiah Mailer:
How's it going? Good morning?

Chris:
Today we're going to be talking about how to increase your metabolism in general, just as a topic. Whatever our thoughts are on it. And hopefully get some good takeaways from that because a lot of people have slow metabolism.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Definitely.

Chris:
I think maybe one way to start is to think about the metabolism, because it's this abstract concept that people throw around quite a bit. Really what it is, its energy metabolism. It's really the measure of the flow of energy through the body.

Jeremiah Mailer:
The definition is basically all chemical processes that take place within the organism.

Chris:
Yeah. And the energy required to do so and allow that flow. And it's regulated chiefly by the thyroid gland. So when your thyroid is out of balance, your metabolism ends up being effed. That's one way to think about body systems and how to solve body system issues naturally, is to think about what are the glands and what are the chief leverage points essentially for that system that you can optimize, you can focus on.

Chris:
In this case focusing on your thyroids is a pretty good one because it really is that high leverage type of thing. You got to make sure the gland's working properly. That's how I thought about all my hormonal issues, my testosterone issues back in the day was like, what's the chief gland or organ that's going have to be optimized in order to make this happen properly, naturally.

Chris:
It was pituitary and making sure the signaling from the hypothalamus to the pituitary to genadol glands and adrenal glands is working properly. So in this case, we're looking at the thyroid which also has feedback, don't get it wrong. It has feedback to all these other organs as well. But if you're just focused on this thyroid gland, you're going to get your most bang for your buck because the feedback will naturally be good to the other glands.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Yeah. Do we want to define basically what the axis is?

Chris:
Sure.

Jeremiah Mailer:
There's the hypothalamus-pituitary-thyroid axis. And basically, your body's constantly taking feedback from its environment both externally and internally. And through that feedback, the hypothalamus will tell the pituitary what to do and the pituitary will tell the thyroid what to do.

Chris:
Yeah. And then the release of these certain hormones also has influence throughout the body, which is in fed back via the spinal cord to the brain. So it's a simple way to think about things that like, I don't think most people think about things in respect to these feedback loops.

Chris:
But it's a good way to do it because when you start to even just visualize, here's how it's going to work. It just makes more sense. It's less nebulous, it's less abstract. Your spinal cord really is this feedback highway back up to your brain. And then the hypothalamus and pituitary are really what are chiefly controlling hormones in the body.

Chris:
Depending on what you're focused on, whether it's reproductive health or metabolism or whatever. It's going to be communicating with different organs through different signaling molecules, signaling hormones. But it's pretty cool. And then if you think about [inaudible 00:03:43] the environmental feedback, that comes through different avenues as well. That's then fed back through the spinal cord to the brain.

Chris:
You have your gut, you have your skin, certain things like that. The gut is obviously where you're going to be eating your food. Goes in, travels down, needs to be digested. The micronutrients are pulled out of the food, processed, they trigger signaling cascades and that cascade feeds back to the brain and so forth.

Chris:
That highlight is how important it is to have a good gut health in general, and why so many things can go wrong for somebody if they have a messed up gut. Because that feedback gets dysregulated essentially.

Jeremiah Mailer:
And it works both ways. If you have a low metabolism, you're going to be producing less stomach acid, less enzymes and you're not going to be getting as many micronutrients and stuff from your food. That's why the Thermo Diet is so unique because it's all very easily digestible food that's going to be very easily taken up by the body. And it's going to be able to fuel all these processes that are happening.

Chris:
Yeah. That's one thing with these feedback loops that's really interesting is that, there's some sort of concept of momentum in them. A reinforcement of the feedback over time. So it gets better and better and better and better or it gets worse and worse and worse and worse over time.

Chris:
So as long as you start to get that momentum going in the right direction and building your habits around consuming the right foods, regulating your stress properly, having good gut health, so forth. It ends up reinforcing itself and it gets better and better and better, until it really approaches an optimal stage.

Chris:
And on the other end, people have all these bad habits for the most part. If you look at just the general population and they're constantly reinforcing it in the negative way. So they're reinforcing bad gut health, they're reinforcing micronutrient deficiencies. They're reinforcing consumption of polyunsaturated fats, toxic oils, bad environmental stressors.

Chris:
Skin agents that are [inaudible 00:06:02] disrupting, that's why it's really important to take a holistic view of this whole thing and look at your entire lifestyle and how this all is going to work. Because you are constantly either reinforcing these feedback loops toward good health or away from it, with every action that you take. And you want the net accumulative load to be positive and moving in that direction constantly.

Jeremiah Mailer:
It's both physiological and psychological. I mean, the psychology plays just as important role as the physiological role. Because whenever you have these negative thought patterns, you're going to increase the amount of cortisol, the amount of adrenaline that's being secreted into the system. Then that's going to be extremely catabolic and start to degrade all of these tissues.

Jeremiah Mailer:
What's interesting is that they actually have an affinity or a liking for a lot of the more sensitive endocrine glands too. So they'll start breaking down a lot of those four amino acids. Which is interesting.

Chris:
Because organs are a rich source of all sorts of good nutrients, essentially that the body wants. If you start to lack them in other areas that's what's going to be attacked, really, catabolized when you're in that chronic cortisol state. People underestimate the power of their own mind. Whether it could be damaging them or building them up.

Chris:
But yeah, the stress regulation really is a massive component to it, if you just looked at leverage curve in general and certain things that you shouldn't be doing. One of them is really just having a high stress lifestyle in general, that you can't regulate or control, modulate, whatever. That'd be a big one.

Chris:
I'd say the two biggest ones, if you had nothing else you're going to focus on, that you wanted the biggest leverage would be stress regulation psychologically. And then on the physiological side, just not consuming PUFAs. Those are the two big things. Yeah, that'd be good. Let's talk about the thyroid. Let's talk about metabolism.

Chris:
If you think back to the Master Your T book, I know probably a lot of people listen to this have read Master Your T. It's my book on testosterone enhancement, that was really the first time that we had considered a framework for thinking about health issues and taking a health issue and then having some step by step way of, like a thought process in order to solve that.

Chris:
In that book and this could be how we think about thyroid or metabolism right now is the pyramid. At the base of the pyramid of micronutrients then you move up, go to nutrition aspects, you go to lifestyle aspects. Then certain exercise and anabolic nature versus catabolic nature and then supplements that you could use. And these are all also relative symbolically to the amount of leverage that they have on the system. The most important thing is the micronutrients. Let's start there.

Jeremiah Mailer:
What are some of the most important micronutrients that you would say are necessary for optimum metabolism?

Chris:
Iodine, selenium, copper, zinc, magnesium-

Jeremiah Mailer:
Magnesium's a big one. And I see sodium-

Chris:
Sodium, all the electrolytes essentially. Which is insane how common electrolyte deficiencies are, when it's something that's so widely known. I remember I knew about electrolytes when I was a little kid. Because of Gatorade, I think was why. Because of Gatorade's commercials and stuff, they're like, electrolytes.

Chris:
Gatorade doesn't even have a many electrolytes in it. But that was a widely known thing. As I got older and realized how common the deficiencies of electrolytes, it's almost mind blowing because everyone knows about electrolytes. It's not this thing that's uncommon to be aware of. But they're so widely used in the body. That's why the deficiency is very common for all of them pretty much.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Yeah. And salt, many people think that you're supposed to restrict salt whenever it's the most abundant electrolyte inside of the body. It makes up most of the extracellular fluid. It's actually necessary for nerve impulses to take place.

Jeremiah Mailer:
You can actually contract your muscles without having enough sodium to cross the cellular membrane to trigger an action potential. And all these people that are restricting salt are restricting their nervous system, in a way.

Chris:
Yeah, absolutely. In all my neuroscience classes in college, when you study neuroscience even just a little bit, even on a surface level if you open up a textbook on it, you'll see it immediately. Everything is controlled by different electrolytes in your nervous system and your brain.

Chris:
They are really what, which you can find as a root of the word electrolyte but they trigger the electrical impulses in the brain general, all that communication it's all based electrically or electricchemically on the concentrations of different electrolytes. Because they're going to be what are opening and closing these ion channels, these gated pathways of communication in the body.

Chris:
They're going to be triggering the action potential like Jayton said, which an action potential is literally an electrical impulse through the neuronal communication essentially just throughout all these cells. And if you don't have the... basically an action potential is interesting because you have to hit a threshold with the ionic concentration. These salts are essentially acting like, what would you? How would you explain ions in a simple way? It's charges literally that-

Jeremiah Mailer:
Just positive and negative charges.

Chris:
Yeah. So if the charge isn't going to reach this threshold, it never triggers the action potential. It has to hit a threshold first and then it shoots off that impulse. And if you look at the, I guess it'd be some sort of electrical impulse chart.

Chris:
If you look at an actual potential on it, there's really this slow rise when there's this ionic concentration before it hits that threshold and then it triggers this massive shoot. It shoots straight up and then it goes down and there's as refractory period where it goes under where it initially was at and then it goes back to baseline.

Chris:
So that's how your nervous system communicates so quickly, just imperceptibly fast in all these things. And like Jayton mentioned, if you don't have the right amount of these different electrolytes and especially salt. Salt is a huge part of the human diet that needs to be there. Then your nervous system is going to have trouble constantly reaching the concentrations that it needs to trigger the action potentials in the right way.

Chris:
And it's really all about the cumulative effect. This is something that takes... A lot of people are deficient even when their kids. There's plenty of research showing that people are massively deficient in certain things when they're born because of the mother being deficient in those things. And then it leads over decades into these issues and for some people the issues could show up immediately as a child.

Chris:
For other people it takes until they're older, maybe 50s and 60s to start having issues especially in the nervous system. But then you can really have extremely serious problems, nervous system issues from MS to Alzheimer's and so forth as you age. And a lot of them can be traced completely back to just cumulative deficiency over decades.

Chris:
That's why it's so massively important and why it's insane that nobody focuses on this stuff. Because it's so foundationally simple as well and it's simple to correct. So that's one thing. The first thing is just in general, the electrolytes.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Yeah. Sodium and potassium are the main ones that are used for the actual action potential. And then whenever you're going across the synaptic cleft, you have calcium-

Chris:
And potassium, there's all these channels that are gated by certain concentrations of these salts or these electrolytes.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Yeah. And calcium is actually interesting because a lot of people are worried about calcium deposits but they actually have it backwards. So it's the lack of calcium in the diet that leads to calcium deposits, because what happens is, the parathyroid hormone is elevated in the body which creates secretion of calcium or leaching of calcium from the bones.

Jeremiah Mailer:
And then that calcium from the bones is deposited into the blood and then it's carried around the body that way and then it gets deposited whenever it is traveling through the body. Whereas if you were to supply your body with enough calcium, which is usually around 2500 milligrams a day for an average size person.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Then you're going to lower the amount of parathyroid hormone that's in the system. And allow your body to be able to use that calcium efficiently for things like proper bone growth, teeth, stuff like that.

Chris:
Yeah. That's a good highlight of just a way to think about the law of compensation within the body itself. If you're not supplying, calcium is a really easy one to think about because there are so many issues with calcium like kidney stones, osteoporosis in general. As people age these become really common in the general population.

Chris:
And it's really due to the fact that if you're not supplying your body, with an outside source of the right amount of these things over time as you get deficient, your body's going to find a way to get the stuff it needs. Because if you look at a hierarchy of importance in the body, it's naturally always going to protect the nervous system. And just key vital functions.

Chris:
And the bones, muscles, those sorts of things are lower on the priority list. It starts to catabolize and leach minerals that it needs from other areas of the body. That's what leads to these other issues later in life because you've actively been pulling calcium from your bones and so forth, because you're not supplying your body with enough of it. And that goes really with anything. Amino acids as well.

Chris:
Your body needs all these amino acids to operate properly. And if it's not getting them from the diet then it'll start pulling them from other places. And that's also where people start to... a lot of the anti stress amino acids are protective amino acids that are found in connective tissue like your joints and that sort of thing.

Chris:
If you're not consuming those amino acids in your diet, your body's going to start pulling them from other places that it needs it. And that's when people start to lead to, they get arthritis issues later and so forth. Your body's literally pulling those important things from the connective tissue, from the joints and it needs it.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Yeah. And it's also like whenever you're glucose deficient, the body will start pulling amino acids from the muscle and different endocrine glands to convert those amino acids via gluconeogenesis into glucose.

Chris:
That's one reason why the keto diet is dumb. You're actively allowing your body to do that, you're choosing to let it do that. But luckily most people don't even have the ability to stay on the keto diet for very long.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Yeah. Because they start feeling like crap.

Chris:
No wonder. The first thing for metabolism, how to increase your metabolism, make sure the electrolytes are topped up. Because just in general, you need them. All that neuronal communication is extremely important. All this stuff is tied together. I think a lot of people think, oh, your brain isn't your metabolism.

Chris:
They just have this compartmentalized view, because a lot of Western medicine in general for some reason has that view of all these compartmentalize things. Like, oh, because something's are... if you look at like, you've talked to a heart doctor or a cardiovascular surgeon or something.

Chris:
Ask him a question, they're going to see the body through that lens because that's all they studied. You talk to a brain surgeon he's going to only see it through that lens, you talk to a podiatrist, he's only going to see it through that lens.

Jeremiah Mailer:
It's very reductionist view.

Chris:
Yeah, it's wild to me that that pervades like it's not logical at all how something... and a lot of people even very smart people, like doctors, researchers just don't see the whole system of the body. They don't see it as a system, which is wild. They only see these myopic views of different parts of the body.

Jeremiah Mailer:
They view it almost like a machine instead of an actual organism that's self healing. And actually has the ability to communicate with itself instead of looking at it like a robot, where I just need to fix this.

Chris:
Even machines though, they are just these massive systems. This gets into also just like, I love this type of stuff. Philosophy of the mind and that sort of thing. Because I remember back in college, in one of our neuroscience courses we actually looked a lot really common studies in neuroscience are around behavioral neuroscience.

Chris:
And AI is a huge focus right now and academic neuroscience and therefore consciousness comes up. And that just made me think of the old Rene Descartes, he had this genius, brilliant concept back then that really just messed up, just threw the whole world of philosophy on its head for a minute. Until it got recalibrated and people can sit and reconsider what he was doing.

Chris:
But he made this garden of automatons essentially, where it was, I think it's still amazing what he did but he took water and he was using a hydro powered garden of these robots. They were the first robots from what I understand. Where they were really just these machines and he was allowing the flow of water through the machine to animate the machine.

Chris:
And that really messed up people's minds because they were watching these things back then I think it was in Victorian times or something. I can't remember the year, was it 1500, 1600, somewhere back then. And he had his little garden and all these fancy Victorian people were looking at him like what the hell is going on? He was pumping water through all of them. And they were acting like people.

Chris:
And for people to see this. I think even now if you really consider it, it's troubling. You're like, well how? It's just this water force, a hydro flow of water. Which is interesting because if you think about the way that we think about the body now with the flow of energy through system, is what animates and creates order within it.

Chris:
And back then he was proving that you could do it with water. And you can make these robots that were animated and they were moving. And people were, it was messing up their heads because they were like, how is this? I thought we are so special and unique and he's like, I can make this thing talk just by pumping water through it in the right way.

Chris:
And its limbs are moving and it's picking things up or whatever. And even back then prove that it's just this one big system that you can animate with the flow of some sort of energy through. Back then it was hydro powered essentially.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Yeah. Thinking of consciousness, it's really interesting to relate the consciousness to the metabolism. Because basically, you can relate your perception of reality to how high your metabolism is and how well it's functioning.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Because there's some people that have stated that whenever babies are born, for the first two years of your life your metabolism so high that you're practically in a psychedelic state of consciousness. That's why so many people don't really remember the first two years of their lives-

Chris:
I wish I could go back to just being constantly high like just a little baby, you're soaking everything in, your so creative.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Yeah, their metabolism's so high that they're just constantly in that state of consciousness. And then we don't have the ability to tap back into that, so we don't remember that time in our life.

Chris:
And that's when you really learn everything. And that was something in The Thermo Diet in the course and everything talking about the idea of thermo being the perfect state of health. Where as a concept, that you want to move back toward right and back. As a child, in your situation you're the most healthy as a child that you'll ever be in your life and you start to move away from it.

Chris:
So thermo, conceptually is the idea of going back toward that. You'll have the highest metabolism, your skin's amazing, your creativity, your brain. Everything is as good as it will ever be in your life. Barring some developmental issues or prenatal issues, which are also very common.

Chris:
Government wide, these big government agencies actually have worldwide large scale studies on prenatal thyroid issues being one and micronutrient deficiencies. The more you look into this stuff the more wild it is that people know about it but no one talks about it. In terms of government bodies and that sort of thing.

Chris:
World Health Organization and that's why also like these [inaudible 00:24:40] get into conspiracy weird shit. These people know about this stuff and they're still telling you to do all these other things. That's wild. I don't even get that, that's a topic for another time.

Jeremiah Mailer:
I know it's just like the antidepressant myth. People think that serotonin is the happy hormone. Whenever is probably the last thing that you want to be elevating and that you want to be keeping in the synaptic cleft. It's really interesting and they've actually correlated a lot of excessive serotonin production to children being born with autism.

Chris:
Yeah, autism is interesting. There's a lot of different things that can happen developmentally that can lead to certain symptoms like that. It might even be confused for it. But developmental mitochondrial issues can lead to certain just symptoms that are very similar to autism, which is interesting.

Chris:
And it's extremely common, especially in developing nations to have and in the US even now but more so than other countries have the mother having thyroid issues while she's pregnant, can lead to developmental issues. And obviously deficiencies and obviously hypothyroidism in the child from birth.

Chris:
So it's extremely important, especially for mothers to make sure that they're not suffering from these sorts of issues while they're pregnant. And you can bet when I eventually have kids, I'm going to make sure my wife is healthy [inaudible 00:26:26] I'll be like, all right, we're getting you tested all the time, keeping you topped up. Get those UMZU minerals and vitamins in there. Eating that collagen.

Jeremiah Mailer:
A lot of women try to start eating 'healthy' whenever they get pregnant, but they're very undernourished and they're not eating the right types of food, which leads to even more problems developing over time.

Chris:
Yeah. Let's talk about some of the trace minerals. We've talked about minerals in general, like electrolytes. Trace minerals that are really important for the thyroid gland and your metabolism in general are the copper, iodine, selenium-

Jeremiah Mailer:
And zinc.

Chris:
And zinc. Yeah. Would you classify it as a trace mineral or no?

Jeremiah Mailer:
I would. It can also be a heavy metal too in some cases.

Chris:
Yeah, these things are all different, you can classify them as different things. Except for vitamins, they're just vitamins.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Yeah. And then I think if we're going to talk about the trace minerals, we also need to talk about certain amino acids like tyrosine. Tyrosine is actually what makes up the middle of the iodine molecule. And then the difference between T4 and T3, T4 has a tyrosine molecule with four iodine molecules attached to it.

Jeremiah Mailer:
And then what happens whenever... so the thyroid mainly produces T4, and so T4 is then carried to the peripheral tissues or the liver to be converted to T3 via the DI [inaudible 00:28:04] enzyme. And so this enzyme cleaves off one of the iodine molecules to allow it to be T3. And then whenever it gets inside the cell, it can start to take action. And so T3 is the more active thyroid hormone whereas T4 is more of the inactive thyroid hormone that's mainly just carried around the body.

Chris:
Which is why you want to be able to convert it. And a good way to think about that is just even the name T4, T3. T-Tyrosine, 4-iodines. T-Tyrosine, 3-iodines. Simple.

Jeremiah Mailer:
T3-Triiodothyronine, it's what it is.

Chris:
It's pretty cool. I don't think a lot of people know that.

Jeremiah Mailer:
But unfortunately, a lot of doctors what they do is whenever you complain of hyperthyroid like symptoms, they'll give you a TSH test and your TSH will be low. And then your T4 will be normal, however, and so they'll just send you home with you still suffering from all these symptoms.

Jeremiah Mailer:
And what happens is you actually don't have the ability to convert the T4 into the T3. And so you're actually are at the cellular level hypothyroidism, like you have hypothyroidism. But the doctors via the poor blood tests that they're using-

Chris:
They're focusing on the wrong marker.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Yeah, they're not measuring the right things. And so-

Chris:
And TSH so people know thyroid-stimulating hormone.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Yes, from the pituitary. So usually want to keep that around 0.7 to 0.8 or lower and then anything above that is relatively hyperthyroid like.

Chris:
And this also highlights how important your liver health really is. Even with all of this stuff, liver's fricking massively important for even all the reproductive health stuff. Because it releases SHBG which if your liver's overworked, what it ends up doing is releasing a lot of SHBG.

Chris:
And that's why people even with something as small as Tylenol, they found that Tylenol can trigger a massive release of SHBG into the blood. Which is what goes in binds all your reproductive hormones or your androgens in the blood. It makes them so they can't bind to anything else.

Chris:
So you got to pay attention to your liver. Especially as you get older and older and older, the liver's constantly working. And not only is critical in your reproductive health but it's critical and your thyroid and your metabolism in general.

Jeremiah Mailer:
And then another important thing about T3 is that it's actually necessary for steroids synthesis. And so pretty much any hormone synthesis especially like [inaudible 00:31:03] progesterone, DHGEA. And then further down the line, testosterone, DHT. It's necessary for all of these processes to take place.

Jeremiah Mailer:
And so if you don't have enough T4 being converted into T3, you're not going to be able to make enough steroid hormones. And so a lot of the times men who have low T end up jumping on hormone replacement therapy, whenever they are actually just hyperthyroid and they need to focus on their thyroid health. And then whenever they get their thyroid functioning correctly, their steroidogenesis will ramp up.

Chris:
Yeah, I don't know how, why don't doctors know, why aren't they even taught this? I know they're not taught very much nutrition. Really low amount of nutrition.

Jeremiah Mailer:
I think it's four hours in the entire eight years that they're in school.

Chris:
Yeah. And we talked about that on another episode. How that is fed back into their disbelief in nutrition, based on the poor quality of nutrition training. The material they don't believe is even that good. Therefore they just write it off. But then on this stuff like hormones in general, even endocrinologists I don't... In my experience with endocrinologist and I've seen quite a few of them over the years when I was having my issues, they don't even focus on these cascades of hormones, it's crazy.

Chris:
And endocrinologist I would consider to be some of the most intelligent doctors in general like MDs. Their training is extremely rigorous and difficult and the endocrine system is extremely difficult to understand nuanced. Yet they don't think in a system mindset like this. They're still going to say the tests that they order are indicative I think of how they think about it.

Chris:
And for a guy that walks in to a endocrinologist low T, they're not ordering a full panel like this to get the full View. They're not looking at the thyroid at all. They're just looking for usually LH levels in FSH if you're lucky. A lot of them will just order a total testosterone and they're not even looking at the LH or FSH-

Jeremiah Mailer:
Or free T.

Chris:
Or free or estrogen or cortisol. I get a lot of people sending me tests, which is great. Send me your tests. But I don't always have time to look at them or see what people are doing but-

Jeremiah Mailer:
Yeah, I love looking at blood work too. I don't know.

Chris:
I like it's this big puzzle. But a lot of the tests that I get sent are just terribly ordered, they don't show much of a view. So I end up sending back feedback to that person, okay man, did you check this? Did your doctor check these other things? Because that's really what's going to tell you the whole story about really what you need to be focused on here.

Chris:
And every single time they're like, no my doctor just ordered this. So it's an issue. That's why eventually I really want to figure out how to integrate really solid testing into the UMZU business model. It's financially expensive to do. So there's a little bit of financial innovation that we're going to have to figure out. Like value innovation, how to be able to do this properly.

Chris:
But if we can get testing to the point where it's commercially viable, to have full panels done on yourself and have almost just these, based on your results here's a to-do list. If we can figure that out, that'd be incredible for personalized medicine and empowering the individual on how to deal with this stuff properly. Because the medical system currently is just not doing it right.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Yeah. And a lot of the times the doctors won't even allow you to request the type of blood work that you want done. It's like we don't have a right to what's going on with us biologically.

Chris:
Exactly. And that comes down to ultimately I think everyone wants to know. Even if you have a different level of understanding, some people understand a lot, some people understand very little. But ultimately every single person does want to know their own data, about their body. And that's fundamentally I think you're right to know it.

Chris:
Right now we're currently just based on the time we live in and how this is all set up, it's hard to do. Financially, it's difficult. I think a lot of the testing stuff with doctors, I think they're completely told what they can and what they cannot order based on insurance.

Chris:
And that's why they end up giving you only limited information and then prescribing some sort of drug or hormone therapy usually. Which it's just messed up because they only have a limited view. And if they're being told that they can and can't order by an insurance company, whose then completely controlled by pharmaceutical company or a bunch of them. It's messed up.

Chris:
And I think there's big opportunity for us to innovate throughout our lifetimes and make the system better. So anyway, that's a little diatribe off track but back to some of the trace minerals. So we have iodine obviously is extremely important. Tyrosine as an amino acids is extremely important, also for dopamine in the body.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Selenium is extremely important for the conversion of T4 to T3 inside the liver.

Chris:
Yeah. Well, and selenium an iodine deficiencies are widespread. Very common, because it's not easy to get either of them in your diet. And iodine especially, we can stay on iodine for a second. That's where goitrogens come into play. Anything that's going to block the uptake of iodine into the thyroid gland is going to harm the T4 production in general.

Chris:
It's going to make it so it naturally if you think about what T4 is [inaudible 00:37:08] tyrosine four iodines. If you don't have the iodine available, it's not going to be there, you can't make that hormone. Therefore, if you're consuming things that are blocking the ability of your thyroid gland to uptake iodine, bring it into the gland to be able to use and to make this hormone, you are actually harming this whole cascade of events.

Chris:
And therefore it's not that radical to think that a lot of people's problems are because they're consuming things that are goitrogenic.

Jeremiah Mailer:
And phytic acid as well. Phytic acid from grains is a big one too.

Chris:
Yeah. Any sort of antinutrient, that's big. Because the antinutrients they carry a charge that's going to bind a certain mineral, usually a handful of them are things like calcium, zinc, I think iodine also.

Jeremiah Mailer:
I think mostly the antinutrients [inaudible 00:38:09] a negative charge and they're attaching to all these positively charged ions.

Chris:
Yeah. Like calcium is 2+.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Yeah. It's interesting.

Chris:
Yeah, it's like a magnet. Think about it like a magnet. But goitrogens can be controversial. They're very real. A goitrogen will block iodine uptake into the thyroid. What comes down to being controversial, I think in health circles is more about the load because it takes a lot of consumption of a high amount of goitrogens to make that impact perceptible.

Chris:
I was at a dinner the other day with some health guys that were in the space. And one of the guys, he's a little self righteous but he... I wasn't eating a salad at dinner. I don't eat lettuce. I'm not into that.

Jeremiah Mailer:
It's nasty. It doesn't even taste good.

Chris:
But meanwhile I eat the most epic baked potato I've ever had in my life, which I could tell you about in a minute. But I'm not eating salad. And he's like, why aren't you eating salad? Because he's eating the salad. And again, he's going to get all, you know, people get a little testy if you challenge their beliefs. And I'm like-

Jeremiah Mailer:
[inaudible 00:39:32] attach their identity to that. Then it's like, this is me.

Chris:
Well, and then they feel like I'm somehow judging him. I don't give two shits if he eats a salad or not-

Jeremiah Mailer:
I don't care, do what you want.

Chris:
... I really don't care. But he's projecting that on me that I'm judging him and then therefore he gets all defensive. And he's like, why aren't you eating a salad? Because I don't eat lettuce, I don't need any sort of greens. It's just not my thing. And then he keeps prodding into that. I wasn't even bringing up any of the details.

Chris:
And I'm like, I just don't eat goitrogens in general. I don't eat beans, I'm not in general not concerned with... I don't find any point in consuming things that are goitrogenic. And he's like, I read all the research and I've seen this blah blah. Goitrogens aren't a thing, you got to eat so many pieces of lettuce to make an impact.

Chris:
And I'm like, well yeah, so I'm just not going to eat any of it. You can keep doing your things, I read all the research it's like, yeah dude, I definitely read way more research than you. You're, whatever.

Jeremiah Mailer:
But then even if that's the case, you can still bring up the point that the fact that all of this cellulose that you're in taking, we don't produce cellulase so we simply cannot digest plant cell wall.

Chris:
Yeah. The plant cell walls made of cellulose. People do that. It's common, especially in people that are somewhat educated on a subject but then they have that like, it's almost just the mindset of like, they think you're judging them, therefore they're going to defend yourself. Well, I wasn't judging him at all. I don't really care.

Chris:
So anyway, but so goitrogens though, it is a thing that the load of gorgeous matters. Unfortunately, it's not just goitrogens are in legumes also and nuts and that sort of thing. So people actually consume way more than they think. And so that guy's argument was like, I'd have to eat so much lettuce in order to make this a thing.

Chris:
Well, okay, sure. A lot of people do. There are a lot of people that focus especially people that are eating a higher plant based diet and that sort of thing. They eat a lot of raw vegetables and a lot of raw leaves and stems. A lot of people every day are eating raw leaves. They're eating beans, they're eating these things that are goitrogenic.

Chris:
And they end up wondering why they have thyroid problems. I'm just thinking of a case, I know a woman who has been on thyroid medication for 30 years or something. She's a vegan. And we were having a discussion about it. And I was like, I think it's the diet, your diet is what is causing your thyroid issues.

Chris:
And so it's hard for people to accept it, especially when you build an identity around a diet like that. But I think it's just true. So you want to make sure to limit your load of goitrogens that you're consuming. Just naturally they're going to harm the iodine uptake and your thyroid gland. Therefore, the production of T4, the conversion of T3 and the cascade of events that happens throughout that whole loop and feedback loop.

Jeremiah Mailer:
And I think another thing is a lot of these people who are eating a lot of raw, especially raw cruciferous vegetables that are hard to digest. They have this little pooch belly, they're not fat. They don't have any fat on them but they still have this little pooch.

Jeremiah Mailer:
And what that is, is all of those vegetables that they're intaking are fermenting in the gut and feeding all of the bacteria that are in there. So all of this bad bacteria is constantly reproducing and it produces more and more and then you have small intestinal bacterial overgrowth and that leads to constant bloating, it produces a bunch of gas-

Chris:
IBS symptoms-

Jeremiah Mailer:
Endotoxin seratonin.

Chris:
[inaudible 00:43:24] That's another thing, the serotonin thing in the gut and antitoxin. A lot of people don't understand that your gut is just full of neurons [inaudible 00:43:34] how do you think it's communicating with the spinal cord through to the brain, it's communicating with neurons.

Jeremiah Mailer:
90% of serotonin is produced inside of the gut.

Chris:
So you don't need vegetables. I've said it before I'll say it again. You just don't. Whatever, make your own choice and life is better without them, trust me. You will enjoy what you eat way more if you don't eat vegetables. Vegetables being defined in the thermo sense of stems and leaves, which is really what they are. Focus on fruits and roots.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Yeah. And they're easily digestible too, you can-

Chris:
You can get the nutrients from them.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Like squash and cucumber those are fruits, they are really easy to digest. They're pretty delicious.

Chris:
They're delicious. Thermo foods are just more delicious than other food. You're focused on the better food. I think someone posted in the group the other day I thought it was great. His thermo grocery run and then he was like, all this stuff like organic sourdough and all these cool things that he was getting.

Chris:
And he's like, when you realize that thermo is really just living the good life. It really is. You look at the food you're eating like damn, this is freaking great. These are just good foods. They taste better. They're good for me. It's the way to be. That's what makes thermo so easy.

Chris:
Once you start doing it, you're like, I'm just going to eat like this because it's great. It's delicious and I feel good. Okay, so that's iodine. I think we've probably covered enough about iodine. Yes. Want to talk about Selenium a little bit then?

Jeremiah Mailer:
Yeah. So Selenium is necessary, especially in the liver for the conversion of T4-T3. I think that is involved with the DI [inaudible 00:45:22] enzyme that helps cleave off that iodine molecule. And so if you don't have enough selenium in the system, you're not going to be able to convert enough of the T4 into T3 to be used within the cell. And so if you have a selenium deficiency, especially if you don't eat very much seafood. Selenium is most densely found in oysters and-

Chris:
Shellfish.

Jeremiah Mailer:
... yeah, shellfish. So a lot of people don't eat these on a daily basis. So you're most likely going to be a little bit deficient in selenium.

Chris:
Yeah. Liver too obviously [inaudible 00:45:59] Maybe this discussion might be helping people understand why consuming liver actually is so valuable. You get so much bang for your buck. Because a lot of this is based around both reproductive and metabolic cascades go through the liver.

Chris:
So if you can consume very healthy livers from animals that aren't all f'd up from hormone therapies and antibiotics and whatever but get the good stuff. And if you can consume those regularly, you're going to be making sure that you're just supplying your body with these nutrients that it needs. These trace minerals, these amino acids that it really needs and that it's hard to find in other sources. You can get from eggs too. So eggs are such an awesome thing.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Yeah. And B vitamins, it is packed full of all of the B vitamins. Liver's the most micronutrient dense food on the face of the planet that we're aware of.

Chris:
I think heart too, right?

Jeremiah Mailer:
Heart is actually really interesting because it's the organ second to the testes that has the most testosterone, which is really interesting.

Chris:
Give you that heart. It's like a temple of dooms. [inaudible 00:47:17] You don't want to do that the though, don't get all weird on me.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Yeah, so that's really interesting. Heart is a stew meat if you've ever had it, so it really doesn't have a taste to it. It just tastes like regular meat. And it's packed full of all kinds of minerals.

Chris:
Oh, so you've got some thymus gland in there. Did you eat that yet?

Jeremiah Mailer:
Yeah, I did.

Chris:
Yeah. How'd it go?

Jeremiah Mailer:
It's interesting.

Chris:
Yeah, it's known as sweet bread, for the texture of it.

Jeremiah Mailer:
A lot of these people are selling organs at the Farmers Market here in Boulder. And I'll come up and I'll get a couple pounds liver, a heart and then I get some sweet bread. And the person that sells them to me just looks at me like I'm a crazy person. But-

Chris:
They're the ones selling it and they're still like, man, Jayton's insane. This guy's eating so many organs, he's crazy.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Yeah. But no, it was interesting. It's really chewy. So it tastes like you're just sitting there chewing on rubber kind of, it doesn't taste bad but you got to sit there for 10 minutes on one bite.

Chris:
It's more about the texture of certain stuff.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Yeah, that was interesting.

Chris:
I do like squid and octopus though. But they have that kind of rubbery chewy [inaudible 00:48:34] Good with certain toppings, dip it in little jelly. Or hot pepper jelly.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Yeah. Whenever you get done eating liver though you feel like a superhuman almost, you just feel good.

Chris:
Yeah, well, I think also just with any high dose B vitamin like that, like a bunch of B vitamins that you can get a wide range of them from a good natural source. Because a lot of B vitamins it's difficult to get them from natural sources unless you're eating the organ meats like that or good grass fed steak or something like that.

Chris:
Because a lot of supplemental B vitamins they're synthetic. That's where you end up peeing out lime green sometimes. They still work, they're still there but they're just not as good obviously as if you can get it from directly from the source.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Yeah, so what's next for-

Chris:
Well, also copper. Copper is a common deficiency. All these things are common deficiency. If you look at population studies, everyone's deficient in everything. Colin also [inaudible 00:49:39] to talk about colin for the liver.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Colin's big one.

Chris:
Colin's massive. I think, from what I've seen, if it's not the most common micronutrient deficiency then it's one of the top two or three, colin. But it's extremely necessary for so many things in the body. Especially liver health but also neurotransmitter production of acetylcholine.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Acetylcholine is the most abundant neurotransmitter in the body. Isn't it?

Chris:
Yeah, it's really essential for your hypothalamus and your hippocampus. So acetylcholine in the hippocampus is really interesting. I did a whole semester on this class about the neurobiology of learning and memory, which is fascinating. And that's really what got me into... even if you start thinking about focus, you start thinking about memory, you start thinking about, almost leads into perception and stuff too.

Chris:
But you realize how essential colin is, along with the electrolytes in the proper functioning of a healthy, just a healthy brain and a healthy experience of the world. Because when you start looking at focus and memory, learning that sort of thing. It brings it out of just this purely internal biology and starts to introduce external inputs into your life.

Chris:
And it makes you think about your perception of the world and how vital it is that these nutrients can completely do control your perception of the world, which is wild. Like if you can't remember anything, if you can't learn very easily and so forth, you're going to have just your walk through life is totally different than someone who is all topped up on this stuff and they can create acetylcholine properly, to have a good healthy functioning hippocampus.

Chris:
And there's actually really interesting studies on even the difference between the male and the female brain. And this goes down to shows like the difference in hormones and the impact that hormones are going to have on your hippocampus. Where in, I don't know if people might get triggered from this but this is just biological reality.

Chris:
Because of testosterone, because of androgens in the developing brain in the fetus really. Because of the presence of these androgens that are literally creating the primary characteristics of a man while the baby's developing. Actually the ratio being higher in these male reproductive hormones higher than in women, actually forms the hippocampus in a certain way.

Chris:
And it's not completely true across the board. We all know men that aren't great at spatial reasoning and spatial awareness. But it's more of the exception than the rule. The rule in general is these androgens are forming the hippocampus of a male to be able to remember and be more spatially aware of surroundings in the environment.

Chris:
And it creates a richer map and that's why a lot of women just are not as good at directions for example. Men are better typically at spatial awareness because of the presence of the male reproductive hormones in the forming the primary male characteristics of the fetus as it becomes a baby, a human male. I thought that was fascinating and you start to realize really just how important something like colin, something like magnesium, potassium, sodium and calcium really are to your entire experience in the world.

Jeremiah Mailer:
There's at least 300 enzymatic reactions that are magnesium dependent-

Chris:
Yeah, magnesium is a big one.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Yeah so they have to have magnesium to go to completion. There's some sources that actually go all the way up to 3700 magnesium dependent enzymatic reactions in the body. So magnesium is huge.

Chris:
And talking about enzymes. So we haven't really talked, we mentioned a little bit in terms of gut health. And that's what most people think about when they think about enzymes. They think about gut because people obviously are all like, there's a lot more awareness around digestive enzymes.

Chris:
But enzymes in general, they act as co-factors and they act as catalysts in the body in a lot of different ways. When we talk about cascades of events. Cascades is the formal biological term or biochemistry concept of the sequence of events that happens.

Chris:
So essentially if something is going to trigger it, if you think about feedback loops being more of the macro of something. And then you think about these cascades, these micro cascades and there's tons of shit that happens. And we're over simplifying the explanation of certain things. Which is necessary because most people nobody even cares about all this random stuff. And it's hard to keep track of all of it.

Chris:
And for the most part, scientists are finding new stuff all the time. They don't even fully know. But the enzymes are so important to every single cascade. And highlighting back to why magnesium is so damn important. Because it's involved in really a lot of like most of these enzymatic reactions in the body.

Chris:
Therefore, if you're deficient in magnesium, those reactions are going to suffer, the cascades are going to in some way have to compensate. Do a lot of compensation, they'll find what they need but they they end up suffering and cause dysregulation over time if you don't have enough magnesium. But the enzymes are what's going to trigger a lot of these things.

Chris:
And they trigger over and over and over. Within a single reaction, there's going to be a lot of them involved. So if you're deficient in magnesium, then you should realize that these enzymatic co-factors and catalysts are essentially not going to function as well as they should. If that happens over chronic periods of time, it starts to just suffer, the system suffers in general. So just to highlight how important that is.

Jeremiah Mailer:
So what else we got?

Chris:
Well, there's taurine. It's an interesting one. There's, what else for metabolism? We could talk about just some foods that people, we're maybe a little complicated here for people.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Yeah. Maybe we need to get a little actionable on this.

Chris:
Let's move up. We talked about micronutrients on that level of pyramid. Next up is nutrition being like, what should you eat to increase your metabolism? Probably the most pure level of this would be something of like Ray Peat esque diet, focusing on those sorts of things. The issue that I always have is, a pure Peat diet is probably defined for-

Jeremiah Mailer:
Extremists.

Chris:
Yeah. Well, for a short period of time. It's really difficult to do that. Like fresh squeezed orange juice all the time [inaudible 00:57:36] milk, shellfish, whatever. It's not the most satisfying diet. But if you looked at just the breakdown of and I know where he got this diet from, too.

Chris:
If you look at just the breakdown of the minerals and the vitamins and the amino acids that are in it, it's brilliant. These are the things you need to focus on.

Jeremiah Mailer:
And the amount of calories that you can intake whenever you're doing it is absolutely insane.

Chris:
Which highlights really the idea of the laws of thermodynamics applied to the human system, the biological system being like that. By increasing your metabolism in the body, the energy flow you can intake more energy and you won't gain fat really because your metabolism internally is actually matching the increased amount of energy that's coming into the body.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Yeah, I was doing it for a month and I was eating 4000 calories a day easy and didn't gain a pound at all. Which is really interesting.

Chris:
But that's because your metabolism increased. And that's why like back to, I think people over simplify things or they just don't grasp what we might mean if we say, "You got to match the calories in, calories out." So say there was that simple concept. There's the caveat of are the calories that are going in from a source that's going to increase the metabolic rate or not?

Chris:
And a lot of times when people look at calories in versus out, the popular conceptions of that or the popular applications of it, are just people saying, "You can eat whatever the fuck you want." Eat Pop-Tarts, whatever. But that's not a long term good thing.

Chris:
Because what's going to happen is you're going to be decreasing your metabolic rate through the consumption of the wrong sources of those calories and then the calorie itself is just a measurement of energy. But-

Jeremiah Mailer:
Completely void of micronutrients too.

Chris:
Yeah. Most of these diets it's like, if it fits your macros or just the calorie type thing, it's a short term concept. They're not really fully understanding the impact that this source of the food has on your hormones and on your metabolic rate.

Chris:
So if you can intake though, if you are consuming energy from sources of food that have the micronutrients in them that are going to increase your metabolic rate, then by increasing metabolic rate therefore you can consume more calories.

Chris:
That's the truth about the whole thing. So that's where you really want to focus on. The Peat diet is interesting because it was the exact same diet that if you go back to the lab that came out with the essential fatty acid hypothesis back in the 30s-

Jeremiah Mailer:
Really?

Chris:
That's where it came from. I was reading the study from that lab that the dude, the research assistant... so they were, I can't remember that guy's name [inaudible 01:01:05] the main lab is like George [inaudible 01:01:06] But basically, the dude who came up with the essential fatty acid hypothesis completely ignored and took money from... He ignored the real data.

Chris:
He took money from the main, I think it was actually Procter and Gamble back then. Took money from them to come out with this hypothesis that you need these certain fatty acids, these polyunsaturated fats in order to survive which is ridiculous. If you actually look at the research that they were doing in the lab, it was really interesting because they were showing positive results by doing the opposite.

Chris:
They created this diet that was a complete elimination of polyunsaturated fats essentially, if you just look at it in simplest way. But the diet that they were feeding to the rodents that the research assistant documented himself doing was literally the Ray Peat diet.

Chris:
It was high amounts of fruit juices, the good natural one, fresh squeezed. Raw milk, shellfish. I think collagen. They're consuming that and then supplementing with these key minerals, these trace minerals. And I think B vitamins also.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Yeah, because the only reason that they could keep the mice from dying if they had enough what I think it was vitamin B6.

Chris:
[inaudible 01:02:28] with the high PUFA.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Yeah. So whenever they were completely polyunsaturated deficient, they actually began to produce omega-9. And so whenever they produced omega-9, they would start dying off and they found that they were vitamin, I think it was B6 deficient. And so whenever they supplied enough vitamin B6, their metabolic rate would just keep increasing. At that point, whenever they were completely PUFA deficient.

Chris:
And the cool thing [inaudible 01:03:01] was talking to this manager for some heavy hitter like NFL type people talking another day. He suffered from migraines his whole life and just that's why I thought of this study again too. Because he was wondering if there's anything that... he's seen every single specialist, none of them to help.

Chris:
Not assuming I could help but I'd seen this study from that lab in the 30s. And what the research assistant it was just happen to be part of the whole story and the documented thing. He had suffered from migraines his entire life. He was 30 something years old. Within two weeks of consuming that diet. They all went away, never came back. Which is crazy. It's cool. It's really cool.

Chris:
So I told him I was like, this is what happened and told him the story and then really the chief thing that they were doing was just not consuming polyunsaturated fats. And I think also in that study the guy lost a bunch of body fat immediately.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Yeah. I think he was obese and he started losing weight instantly.

Chris:
Melting off. If you want to look at just a pure diet to increase metabolic rate, that's really it's highlighting really what the important things are. Getting that glucose, the fructose, the lactose from the raw milk, it really just sugar, these are all sugars.

Chris:
And then having the right vitamins and minerals and amino acids present in the diet. And that's where really with thermo, the concept of thermo is to take that pure concept and translated into a way of eating and living, that is actually sustainable and enjoyable. Because really, it might be enjoyable for some people to do that but it's not sustainable to just drink juice and milk and eat oysters.

Chris:
It really isn't, are you going to can do that for rest your life? No. So focus on the main, real reasons behind all that is really the highlight of the amino... the right amino acids, the right vitamins and minerals and the right types of sugar in the diet. And that's what you can get through thermo, that's the idea

Jeremiah Mailer:
And saturated fats.

Chris:
And saturated fat. Actually, I think he was consuming coconut oil too. But there wasn't just no polyunsaturated fats at all in the diet.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Yeah, it's really interesting. So, what's next?

Chris:
I don't know what else do you think would help people increase their metabolism? We probably covered most of it and just the key concepts of it and you want to make sure that you're regulating your stress hormones. I think that's really important. I don't know, that probably about covers it for me.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Yeah. I would say the biggest things to take away from this conversation is eliminate polyunsaturated fats, stop eating your vegetables, eat plenty of sugar. And make sure that the quality of your food is good. And supplies adequate nutrition.

Chris:
Yeah. Meaning it has the right vitamins, minerals and amino acids in the food. Because when we say consuming sugar, you want to make sure the source of the sugar is also rich in the stuff that you want. It's a temporary thing to be like, you have some gummy bears or something.

Chris:
Unfortunately, people just hear sugar and they think the wrong things they think like candy and all that.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Or cake and cupcakes, which actually have more PUFA than they do sugar.

Chris:
And antinutrients in the flours and that's-

Jeremiah Mailer:
It's super high in iron.

Chris:
Yeah. Enriched in iron. So, yeah, that's really the basis of it. If you want to increase your metabolism, just eat thermo, really. We did the work for everyone in terms of coming up with, breaking it down into this framework that works. Focusing on the right, certain sources of the foods and sources of stress management and how to do this stuff right.

Chris:
So thermo really is the culmination of many, many years of researching and thinking and testing and developing a framework for doing it. And it will continue evolving. There are a lot of caveats. Sometimes people ask questions of just very, very nuanced things. And it's like, that's a good question.

Chris:
Let's keep driving this forward and figuring out, building a richer map for what this is over the coming decade.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Yeah. And if you have any counter evidence or questions, then please send to us because it just helps us gain a new perspective and look at it from a different angle.

Chris:
Yeah, so hopefully that was a good way to increase your metabolism. If you are interested in hearing more of these episodes, maybe this is the first one you've heard or maybe you've heard all of them. You can subscribe in Apple. What do they call it nowadays? I usually call it iTunes but that was the old school thing now.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Apple Podcast.

Chris:
Apple podcast, Google Play, Google podcasts.

Jeremiah Mailer:
Spotify.

Chris:
Spotify.

Jeremiah Mailer:
It's on the demo diet website. thermodiet.com

Chris:
[inaudible 01:08:53] youtube, also we have it on YouTube. So go to thermodeit.com So we have the new website. It's really cool, if I do say so myself. It's pretty sweet. And we have a very much more detailed thermo body type survey that's been built. So a lot of different outcomes that are very specific.

Chris:
It's going to teach you what your next steps be within the course. So if you already have the course, basically you just log in, do what the survey results say. If you don't have the course yet, then you can get it and apply the action items from the survey results.

Chris:
We have a big vision for building out the thermal website over the coming years and making it just a great resource for everyone that's down to go thermo, ready to change their life. So subscribe to the podcast. Leave us a good review if you like it. We will see you on the next episode.

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